Going Solo. Benefits of Transitioning from Big Law to a Solo Attorney

Allison Williams: [00:00:03] All right. Thank you so much, Carolyn Elefant, for being here with us on the Crushing Chaos With Law Firm Mentor Podcast.

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:00:10] Thanks. I’m really excited. Congratulations on the podcast. I’m really excited to be a guest on it.

 

Allison Williams: [00:00:15] Thank you. Thank you. I’m excited about the podcast and I’m excited that we’re able to pull such top talent as you, because I’m really excited to talk about this topic that I think you are really synonymous in the industry with, which is being a solo entrepreneur.

 

Allison Williams: [00:00:29] So I know that you, by trade in your legal career, are an energy attorney. Me personally, I don’t know a lot of women attorneys that fit into that category. So I want to actually talk about that. And your foray moving from big law over to being a solo attorney as an energy lawyer. Can you talk to us a little bit about what that path was for you?

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:00:50] Sure. So I wound up being an energy lawyer somewhat by chance. I had worked at a large firm in our mutual home state of New Jersey. And I just didn’t want to go back there. So I came down to D.C. and I was looking for positions. And I got a job with the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, not realizing how, at least at that time, how very much directed your path could become just by where you started out. So I worked at FERC for about a year and a half and then I went on to a large firm and then national boutique practice. And my firm downsized, I think it was, I had been out of school for about five years and I thought, you know, I’d always wanted to start a firm and I wasn’t finding any other opportunities. So I thought, no time like the present. So I decided to start my practice. But having the energy background was really helpful because I was able to do higher end contract work when I started out, so other attorneys would hire me for freelance. And even back then, you know, twenty five years ago, they were still paying like a hundred or one hundred fifty dollars an hour for that kind of work on a freelance basis.

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:02:00] So it really kind of gave me some stream of revenue to get the rest of my practice going. And the energy industry over time has really changed, too. And so when I started, everything was, you know, you were dealing with big utility companies or large generators that were producing power. Well, just like everything else in the legal industry, the energy industry has gone smaller. And you have these new players that are challenging the incumbents. And so it’s the same story we see in law all the time. So there were renewable energy companies developing. They needed counsel. There was more gas infrastructure being built. And so landowners were being impacted. They needed counsel. And so as the industry changed, I saw that there were a lot of opportunities and I could be the first person doing it. And even though I was a younger attorney, because it was a new area, having that long experience didn’t matter as much. So here I am.

 

Allison Williams: [00:02:58] Yeah, definitely. So, I mean, it sounds like you were kind of always in the in the vein of being that front runner who is going to step out ahead of opportunity and then kind of catch the wave before it landed.

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:03:09] Yeah, I do feel more comfortable, most comfortable being first. I like having that first mover advantage, maybe because it’s harder for me to get the other types of advantages. I feel most comfortable in that position. So, and there are pros and cons to it.

 

Allison Williams: [00:03:24] Yeah, absolutely. And you know, you said that you always wanted to be a solo attorney, which is very interesting to me because I know a lot of people either land at being solo if they lose their jobs or they just don’t know what else to do. And so while they’re trying to figure it out, they hang a shingle. They say this might not be so bad. So what was it about the desire or the the pull of being a solo attorney that really was a draw for you.

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:03:50] So to be honest, I had really thought about it very much theoretically. I mean, I looked back at some of the journals I had in law school and I would see these notes like something like going on an interview for a law firm. I don’t know if I really want to do this. I can see myself running a firm, but there were no notes or details or, you know, it was just very much out there. But I always liked the idea of of being in charge and handling my cases my way. I had difficulty in employment situations in following up on things, because I didn’t think that they were important to the case. I wasn’t running the case. I mean, I was a poor employee because of that. You know, it’s not a good thing. But when you work for yourself, you handle the cases the way that you want to.

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:04:38] And so you have more, more control. And so I like the idea of having control and the autonomy. And I also like the idea of getting the credit. There have been many times when I was especially in government, I mean, I started at government as an eager beaver in an office where people were not that industrious.

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:04:55] So I quickly rose to the top. And again, this is nothing to brag about, just like any any person working with a mind would have done that. And then I didn’t get the credit. I would like recite off all these long list of cases and resolve them. And then my supervisor was taking the credit. Then I was berated for speaking at the meeting. So, you know, I just wanted to get credit for work that I was doing, too. So that was another another part of it. And, you know, I knew that I could make money from it, but money was not necessarily the prime motivator in starting the practice.

 

Allison Williams: [00:05:31] Yeah. So I think a lot of people will resonate with that message. The idea that they wanted to be, since they were doing all of the independent thought and judgment and analysis and work that went into a product. They want to be able to claim that as theirs because they were really the architect. And so you decided to create your own space to be able to do that. And I know that there’s a lot more to being a solo attorney than just having the name in lights and having the ability to be the boss. So what were some of the challenges that you faced when you first started?

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:06:02] So when I first started, there was not, first of all, there wasn’t a lot of information about starting a firm. I went to a Bar sponsored event and there was a woman who had, she had been at a large law firm and she left with two associates and a paralegal. She was talking about her, you know, thirty thousand dollar a year lease space. The people in the room were looking at each other. Can we even make thirty thousand this year? So so there. But that was that was the business model back then for starting a firm, at least in the D.C. area amongst the people who were doing, you know, energy work.

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:06:43] It was to break off from the firm that you were with and start something else. And so there wasn’t a lot of information. I did know one, one or two energy attorneys, men who had a couple of clients who were running their own firms. And so they were helpful. I mean, it was just everything back then was just so much more challenging, just even being able to get legal research services at an affordable rate. You know, now there’s lots of different ways that you can do that. But, you know, it was like six hundred dollars a month for Lexus for like twelve searches a month. And again it’s like twenty five years ago. So just figuring out how you really had to be very scrappy and you still have to be scrappy. But but back then it was just I think the biggest challenge was just figuring out how to be able to do this in an affordable way because it just, the technology just wasn’t something that was there. In terms of managing the cases, I never liked doing administrative, you know, administrative work or organizing things, but because it was supporting my clients. It made it much more enjoyable. And so I was shockingly to myself extremely organized from the beginning, at least insofar as you could be without real technology or, you know, or support staff because they didn’t have a support staff back then.

 

Allison Williams: [00:08:14] Yeah. So so it sounds like a lot of the challenges that you faced have now have either been removed or have been greatly lessened because of the advent of technology and the Internet and the ways in which people can gather information.

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:08:28] Yes. Yes. No, there’s there’s so many I mean, there there don’t get me wrong, there’s still challenges to starting a firm. But in terms of resource availability, I mean, people can go online and they can listen to your podcast or join your Facebook group and get like in, you’re just one person out there talking about issues relating to law firm management or practice.

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:08:52] I mean, there’s there’s all of those resources. And then again, also, the technology is just so many of the costs have come down across the board, just, you know, being able to have a, you know, electronic invoicing system. You know, I mean, I used to spend the weekends writing up my little spreadsheet and sending the invoices out. And, you know, and they never. That was one thing that was not very organized and timely. So, I mean. Yes. So there there are definitely things that have made it. They’ve really reduced the barriers to entry into doing this.

 

Allison Williams: [00:09:26] Yeah. And since we’re talking about information and information portals, of course, my shingle is kind of. Now what I consider to be the polestar of a really starting a law firm because you have created not just resources and data, but you’ve created a perspective on how to assemble all those resources and where to start. So talk to us a little bit about my shingle dot.com, what it’s designed to do, who it’s designed to help and really what someone is going to find when they get there.

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:09:57] So so one of the reasons I did decide to start it was because it was so difficult for me to find information. Like I said, the Bar had that one program.

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:10:05] I remember a year into my practice I was struggling and I read this article in a newspaper by this woman who was a marketer. And I just like cold called her just kind of just said, help me. I don’t know what to do. And she’s very reassuring. But I wanted there to always be a resource out there. And also something that was very encouraging because there’s a lot of lawyers, I think, in the name of tough love and and right of passage who will not necessarily be encouraging to somebody who’s starting a firm or to somebody who’s struggling. And I think that, you know, as attorneys, we have an obligation to help other people. But also, I didn’t want, I did the site for somebody who was in my shoes that that I was in. And so there have always been available free resources on starting a firm. And again, more of the cutting edge information. I mean, not just like the sort of common sense or more old fashioned or timeless, timeless type of advice that you would find in Fruenberg, which is still relevant to this timeless but also, you know, new ideas on nuts and bolts or things about like virtual law firms or, you know, relying on technology to automate or to outsource or to find people, you know, you can outsource things to. So it’s always been part resource, but also, I guess part you might even call it cheerleader, because I want people to be able to go there if they’re struggling or if they feel down it, because it’s very difficult to talk about those kinds of things.

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:11:43] People feel a sense of shame. You look around on the internet, everybody is smiling and happy and generating seven figures and working two hours a week. I think it can be demor… It’s good to have that vision to to know that those things are out there for you, because that’s what keeps you excited.

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:12:02] But it can also be demoralizing when you haven’t gotten to that point. And so I never I it doesn’t. You know, I share the struggles. I even share my own struggles, because that’s you know, that’s also part of the benefit of the internet is you’ve got this tool that allows you to put yourself out there and be authentic. So so why not? And that’s the kind of feedback that I get from people both on my book and my shingle is just people will say, you know, you gave me the courage to start or I was having a really bad day. And I read this piece and it just got me going again. So so that’s that’s really the purpose of the site. And it’s been around for 17 years. It still gets a relatively high readership rate, even though I’ve not been writing that much recently.

 

Allison Williams: [00:12:48] But yeah, well, I mean, and it is such a great resource, I think because of it, like you say, your authenticity. And so I think what’s missing in the space, in kind of the lawyer, consultant, lawyer, coach, lawyer, advisory space is a lot of that voice to the freedom of owning a law firm into interspersed with the fear and the not knowing it all and feeling like a failure and feeling like you’re foolish because you don’t know. And I think you do alleviate that for people that want to start. But you mentioned something that I think we absolutely have to talk about, which is not only my shingle, but also your book Solo By Choice. So what prompted you to decide to write this book and how is that by choice element really covered in the book?

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:13:36] So I think I started it. There is a publisher called Decision Books that was looking. They had put out a solicitation somewhere looking for books. And I sent an email saying that I wanted to do. Talk about a more modern spin on starting a firm. And I think when the original concept was a little narrower, it was really just going from big lot to your law because, you know, at that time, too, it was, big law was booming and it was very difficult to get people to want to leave big law even though they were miserable. And so the publisher wrote back and, you know, we scoped out this this book, expanding it to, you know, different types of people starting starting firms. But the reason it was called Solo By Choice. And when it came out in 2008, that was before the market downturn. So a lot of people who were starting firms were doing it by choice. But even if, you know, even people who felt like it was a last resort, it was still a choice because it is an opportunity to choose law. I mean, even if there were no conventional jobs or pieces of employment or other employment positions, it’s still an opportunity to choose law. And so that part of the, so so that I guess is sort of the choice. And the book goes through, you know, different considerations you might have, but it presented it as a choice. You know, for example, if you were a mom who had taken time off from work and you wanted to return to the workforce, this was a potential choice. Or it gave options if you were unemployed and you wanted to still practice law. It talked about the sole option as a choice. So that’s like the first couple of chapters. The book discussed those different paths to solo practice, which was also unique because most of the books at that time presupposed that you wanted to start a firm when you picked up the book.

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:15:31] Yeah. So I love the idea that you’re giving people the ability to make empowered choices for their life, because I think a lot of times at least long ago, I don’t know that it’s the same today. I think now it’s really a sexy idea to own a law firm. But, you know, when I was a young attorney, I’m I’m practicing now 17 years, ironically, right about the time that your blog launched. I remember there was kind of a negative connotation for somebody that was a solo. Right? You know, there’s there’s the big law folks. There’s the small law folks, which is the majority of us, even though big law is kind of sold as the as the way. There are far more attorneys, there always have been involved in smaller law firms. And then there are those people that couldn’t hack it anywhere. So they had to go off and do their own thing. And they’re always scattered. They don’t have any systems. They don’t make a lot of money. Those are the people that are just like the Lincoln Lawyer. The scrappy folks out of the backseat of their car and Solo By Choice presupposes that people would actually want to be a solo business, not just a practitioner who couldn’t cut it somewhere else.

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:16:34] Right. Yeah. That’s always been something that’s been very important to me, too. The message that this is something you can do and that you need to do competently. And I see that as a way of improving, even improving access to justice for everybody, because every time a solo comes stumbling into court and, you know, has messy papers and hasn’t proofread and, you know, does one of the things that you see in the press, it really has negative implications for other small firm practitioners.

 

Allison Williams: [00:17:03] Judges don’t look at them… on them as favorably. And so I always felt that it was really important for solo or small firm lawyers, no matter what your firm size is, to present yourself as professionally as anybody else, because it’s important for your clients and it’s important for all clients. I mean, when you speak or when you present yourself in public, you’re really a representative of all of the other solos and small firms out there. So. So I always did have sort of like a bigger, bigger vision for it is improving access because most consumers are working with solo and small firm attorneys. They’re not working with Skadden Arps or, you know, the big law firms. So.

 

Allison Williams: [00:17:44] Yeah. So I want to shift now and talk about kind of the direction of my shingle, because the fact that you started something that was kind of a heart spring, right? This was my experience and I evolved into learning. So now I want to share that knowledge with you. Very much my same path. You know, I found the way and then decided to share that with others. But you actually have kind of stayed true to your roots, which is the oh, my God, it’s so overwhelming. And where do you get all the information to start a law firm? I’m going to share that with people. And you have really continued to stay in that niche. So have you ever considered branching out to help people that once they have established their solo or small law firm, they want to start to scale up? Or do you really just, you know, have you always just been married to where you started, which is really needing the help to get out the gate?

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:18:31] So I don’t think that I’m necessarily the best qualified person to talk about scaling and building a firm to, you know, to five or to 10 or to 15 people. I mean, I can talk about the steps that one can take to get there. But I think that there are other resources that are better adapted for that. I do sometimes focus on sort of, I guess, you know, more special, you know, different parts of the solo experience like niche practices or different business models like subscription models versus virtual law practice. Even there’s even some discussion of different types of legal technology companies as offshoots. But but I’m comfortable with talking about like being the place that people go, where they start because there really aren’t… There’s nobody else who can do that the way that I can do it. So so, you know, and like I said, I am very gratified to see that there are a lot of businesses and coaching services like yours and like others. There are some others that can really help people with the scaling part and the getting bigger. But at the same time, even though my shingle is called, you know, it’s focused on solos.

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:19:51] I mean, I think that it can you know, the information there is sort of best suited for I would say for, you know smaller firms like up to say three or four people, I mean, it certainly, you know, people who were starting as a partnership or as a three person shop can still get a lot of value from the site or people who have, you know, more like a principal attorney and paralegals and staff. I mean, there’s still a lot of information there for them.

 

Allison Williams: [00:20:19] Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think you’re. You talk about the idea that you are the resource for the solo attorney and even for the small partnership that’s just starting out and that there are other resources out there that can help with scaling.

 

Allison Williams: [00:20:33] But if you go to my shingle dot com, you know, and I and I do often actually I refer people when I speak to people that are just starting out. I say I’m probably not the best resource to get you started, but this is the resource to get you started. And I think a lot of people, when they go to that that portal of information, they don’t just get data, they get perspective. And so one of the things that I love about your voice and your voice, meaning your your perspective as shared through my shingle. Is the fact that you do take positions on what’s happening in our profession and how we as lawyers are the glue of society and what we have to do to make sure that we are our best selves for the public. So talk to me a little bit about how you make the decision when you are doing the research and kind of putting yourself out there as a voice on a particular issue like trends in the law or the idea of non-lawyers owning law firms. I mean, I know that that has been a very hotly debated issue and you took a very powerful, very public stance on that. Like how do you make the decision to actually go into that terrain when you might actually disincentivize some people from patronizing what you ultimately put out there?

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:21:41] So I think, I mean, I first will like look to see what issues are there. The one thing that really bugs me is group speak. So if I see an issue where, like there’s a thousand people saying, good idea, good idea, and then it’s like, where’s the analysis or where’s the discussion? Or like, nothing here. Those are usually the ones that I that I tend to target. I mean, we’re lawyers, we’re analytical for our clients. One would think that we would be a little bit more analytical and just the trends in the legal profession.

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:22:13] And I I mean, I think it’s important to for us to express opinions based on our perspective and to have, you know, to engage in dialog, because then you come. The end result is something that’s more deliberative and better thought out. But I try to look at issues where I either see, you know, again, where it seems like there’s a need for a different perspective. I don’t like to jump on… again, most people who are going to comment on an issue are going to take a position that’s as good as the one I can take or even better. So I’m not going to waste my time on something like that.

 

Allison Williams: [00:22:51] Yeah, well, I think people appreciate the fact that you don’t just take a position that you actually back it up with the research or pulling together resources from various different places and really critiquing what the arguments are about those different aspects about our profession.

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:23:08] Yeah. No. And I think that’s important because we really are… I mean, you know, I’ve been practicing for, gosh, like 30 years now. And you always hear every few years this is gonna be the year that there’s outside ownership or this is going to be the year that the forums take over and it doesn’t happen. But I think we definitely are accelerating. Do you see more outside pressure to do that. And you see, you know, a lot of companies or a lot of vendors that are even, you know, getting involved in some of this. And so I think it’s important for people who are in the profession to always have their eye on what’s happening in the future, because, you know, there have been instances or, you know, you do hear about people talking about how, oh, I’m competing against Legal Zoom or customers, you know, went way or I can’t stay in business because of the rates. There’s this downward pressure and there’s lots of ways to solve those problems. I mean, they’re challenges, but they are also opportunities. But they don’t become opportunities unless you’re aware of that and you figure out what you need to do to turn it into an opportunity.

 

Allison Williams: [00:24:13] Exactly. And I think, you know, being armed with the fact that the world is changing and if we don’t change with it, then all that we’re going to do is continue to breed a lot of antagonism and resentment. I think a lot of the public really protests when lawyers say no, the way it must be done is the billable hour or the way it must be done is big law or the way it must be done is to go to a brick and mortar shop instead of teleport with someone or, you know, FaceTime or Zoom. So you really are one of those voices on the cutting edge and really help other lawyers to see that as an avenue to their greatest success.

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:24:50] Yeah. Yeah. And like I said, that is the, that’s the position that, you know, that I now realize that I’m the most comfortable with and it takes you awhile to figure out, like what’s your sweet spot. But when you do that, it’s hard to move away from it.

 

Allison Williams: [00:25:04] Yep. Very much so. So as we’re kind of tailing down our interview, I wanted to ask you just a couple more questions. And this one really deals with gender diversity, which is I think more and more we’re starting to read articles about, where are the women in the law firms and why aren’t women achieving in certain ways in certain traditional legal models? And I think a lot of women choose being a solo because they can then create the space for themselves, for them to live their best lives. However, they define it in a way that satisfies them without having to fight the pressure of conforming to a model that doesn’t work for them. So when you talk about solo practice, is that an angle that you cover? Is that something that has an interest to you? And if so, where does that come from?

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:25:48] So it has increasingly become something that’s been more important. I mean, when I started my firm, well, I didn’t have kids when I started, but I often would say at the beginning that I started a firm to have more autonomy. And then I stayed solo to have flexibility to raise a family. But solo practices or starting a law firm is not just necessarily a work-life balance choice. It’s a way of, and I’ve started to change my view on this. It’s I mean, work life balance is one component of this. It’s a way of taking ownership and taking charge of your career and your place in the law. And I think that that is really important for women to do. And I think that, you know, I cringe sometimes. Well, first of all, I get very frustrated when I see the reports every year. No surprise there’s 2 percent, whatever. How many women at big law. It’s the same thing over and over again. And then I also cringe when I read about how, you know, we have to set up a committee. You have to wait for this top down somebody to give you your freedom or your papers.

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:26:55] And I feel like just the act. It’s so empowering when you take charge of your career. And by owning a firm, by owning the work that you do that it… There are benefits that trickle throughout the legal profession.

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:27:13] And I think that and that’s become something that as I’ve gotten older, it’s become something that’s more relevant to me in that I see more. And also because I you know, I have daughters who are in I mean, they’re they’re both in math. It’s not the most gender free. And, you know, to think that they could have this kind of experience that women are experiencing in the legal profession is really offensive to me. So I just think we really need to recognize the importance of women ownership. And it’s something that’s been recognized, you know, outside of the law. I mean, when you look at, you know, there are a lot of nonprofits that are dedicated to supporting women in poor countries, you know, owning businesses, starting businesses. We see it in the tech industry. There’s, you know, maybe not as many women who are founders, but who are at least being acknowledged for the work that they do. And it’s just so troublesome. But, you know, in law, when you don’t when you don’t see that and I mean, we’ve both been in a lot of these Facebook groups that have women law firm owners. It is so exciting to see all these women like building these amazing practices all so different and really make it, all making more money than they did when they were at a law firms. So it’s you know, it’s and that’s important too. The financial aspect of it also is important to the diversity and equality.

 

Allison Williams: [00:28:35] Yeah. Well, you know, it’s interesting that you mentioned the Facebook groups because there there’s now like such a, such a swell them. And it is exciting when you see thousands and thousands of women across the world that gather to talk about the business of law. And it very, very much shows that we have come a long way. But a lot of the conversations do also tell me that we have a long way to go. And a lot of times a lot of women will oftentimes have a reactionary stance to, I’m not being paid what I feel I should be. So I’ll just go leave and start my own. And it’s like, OK, well, part of this is also having conversations and and pushing the envelope and really standing for what you believe in. And you have to you have to grow into that when you when you own your own business as well.

 

Allison Williams: [00:29:18] So this is the end of our interview. But of course, I would be remiss if I had this great resource that is Carolyn Elefant here on the Crushing Chaos With Law Firm Mentor Podcast, and I didn’t ask the one question that I know is the burning question that solos want to know, which is if I am somebody who is dying to get out there. Right? I want to start my law firm, but I’m scared. I don’t know if I’m going to be able to replace my income. I don’t know where I’m going to get clients from. I don’t know how hard it’s going to be to balance it all. And I already feel overwhelmed as an associate or even a partner. And I just now am thinking about maybe doing it on my own. What would be the one piece of advice you would give to that aspiring solo to help them get over that hump and ultimately, take that step if it’s the right step for them?

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:30:04] So that is a really good question. I think it would be. I mean, ultimately. So you can sit down and just, you know, do back of the napkin, think about clients who you might be able to get. I mean. And the revenue that might come in just do like sort of a broad calculation. But ultimately, the advice is really to just go out and do it. The world is so different. Once you’re out there, the opportunities become so much clearer.

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:30:32] The time that you have to be able to work on it. So I think that at some point it just be. The advice is to just stop thinking about it, stop, you know, planning the website and doing all your cost analysis and and just do it. You can never lose. Once you have started something and have a taste of what it’s like, even if you don’t like it and you hate it and you realize that you just want to get a job back, you’re still so much better positioned to do that once you have gone out and done something yourself. So my advice is just to to do it, just stop the analysis at some point and just go out and just do it.

 

Allison Williams: [00:31:14] All right, you guys, you heard it right here. Just do it if you want to be a solo. Just jump on out there and the opportunities will come to you. So, Caitlin LFR, I want to thank you so much for joining us today. You have been, as usual, a wealth of information and knowledge. And if people want to get a hold of you, if they want to learn more about how to be a solo and the resources that you offer, how best can they do that?

 

Carolyn Elefant: [00:31:36] They can either, they can find me at elefant at my shingle dot com at carolyn elefant on Twitter. I do tweet a lot. And then also my shingle has a Facebook page.

 

Allison Williams: [00:31:50] All right. You guys heard it right here. Thank you so much. And as always, tune in next week when you hear more about how to crush chaos in your law firms. Have a great day, everyone.